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COVID – why terminology really, really matters

4th September 2020

COVID – why terminology really, really matters

[And the consequences of getting it horribly wrong]

When is a case not a case?

Since the start of the COVID pandemic I have watched almost everyone get mission critical things wrong. In some ways this is not surprising. Medical terminology is horribly imprecise, and often poorly understood. In calmer times such things are only of interest to research geeks like me. Were they talking about CVD, or CHD?

However, right now, it really, really, matters. Specifically, with regards to the term COVID ‘cases.’

Every day we are informed of a worrying rise in COVID cases in country after country, region after region, city after city. Portugal, France, Leicester, Bolton. Panic, lockdown, quarantine. In France the number of reported cases is now as high as it was at the peak of the epidemic. Over 5,000, on the first of September.

But what does this actually mean? Just to keep the focus on France for a moment. On March 26th, just before their deaths peaked, there were 3,900 hundred ‘cases’. Fourteen days later, there were 1,400 deaths. So, using a widely accepted figure, which is a delay of around two weeks between diagnoses and death, 36% of cases died.

In stark contrast, on August 16th, there were 3,000 cases. Fourteen days later there were 26 deaths. Which means that, in March, 36% of ‘cases’ died. In August 0.8% of ‘cases’ died. This, in turn, means that COVID was 45 times as deadly in March, as it was in August?

This seems extremely unlikely. In fact, it is so unlikely that it is, in fact, complete rubbish. What we have is a combination of nonsense figures which, added together, create nonsense squared. Or nonsense to the power ten.

To start with, we have the mangling of the concept of a ‘case’.

Previously, in the world of infectious diseases, it has been accepted that a ‘case’ represents someone with symptoms, usually severe symptoms, usually severe enough to be admitted to hospital. Here, from Wikipedia…. yes, I know, but on this sort of stuff they are a good resource.

‘In epidemiology, a case fatality rate (CFR) — sometimes called case fatality risk or disease lethality — is the proportion of deaths from a certain disease compared to the total number of symptomatic people diagnosed with the disease.’ 1

Note the word symptomatic i.e. someone with symptoms.

However, now we stick a swab up someone’s nose, who feels completely well, or very mildly ill. We find that they have some COVID particles lodged up there, and we call them a case of COVID. Sigh, thud!

A symptomless, or even mildly symptomatic positive swab is not a case. Never, in recorded history, has this been true. However, now we have an almost unquestioned acceptance that a positive swab represents a case of COVID. This is then parroted on all the news channels as if it were gospel.

I note that, at last, some people are beginning to question how it can be that, whilst cases are going up and up, deaths are going down, and down.

This is even the case in Sweden, which seems to be the final bastion of people with functioning brains. However, even they seem surprised by this dichotomy. In the first two weeks of August they had 4,152 positive swabs. Yet, in the last two weeks of August, they had a mere 14 deaths (one a day, on average).

That represents 1 death for every 300 positive swabs or, as the mainstream media insists on calling them, positive ‘cases’. Which, currently, represent a case fatality rate of 0.33%. Just to compare that with something similar, the case fatality rate of swine flu (HIN1), was 0.5%. 2

Thus, lo and behold, COVID is a less severe infection than swine flu – the pandemic that never was. That’s what these figures appear to tell us. They tell us almost exactly the same in France where they ‘appear’ to have a current case fatality rate of 0.4%.

On the other hand, if you look at the figures from around the world, they are very different. As I write this there have been, according to the WHO, 25 million cases and 850,000 deaths. That is a case fatality rate of more than 3%. Ten times as high.

Why are these figures so all over the place? It is because we are using horribly inaccurate terminology. We are comparing apples with pomegranates to tell us how many bananas we have. Our experts are, essentially, talking gibberish, and the mainstream media is lapping it up. They are defining asymptomatic swabs as cases, and no-one is calling them out on it. Why?

Because… because they are frightened of looking stupid? Primarily, I believe, because they also have no idea what a case might actually be So, it all sounds quite reasonable to them.

The good news

However, moving on from that nonsense, there is some extremely good news buried in here. Which I am going to try and explain. It goes as follows.

At the start of the epidemic, the only people being tested were those who were being admitted to hospital, who were seriously ill. Many of them died. Which is why, in France, there was this very sharp, initial case fatality rate of 35%. In the UK the initial case fatality rate was I think 14%. Last time I looked at the UK figures, the case fatality was 5%, and falling fast.

This fall has occurred, and will occur everywhere in the World, because as you increase your testing, you pick up more and more people with less severe symptoms. People who are far less likely to die. The more you test, the more the case fatality rate falls.

It falls even more dramatically when you start to test people who have no symptoms at all. In fact, as you broaden your testing net, something else very important happens. You gradually move from looking at the case fatality rate to the infection fatality rate.

The infection fatality rate is the measure of how many people who are infected [even those without symptoms, or very mild symptoms] who then die. This is the critical figure to know because it gives you an accurate assessment of the total number of deaths you are likely to see.

IFR x population of a country x % of population infected = total number of deaths (total mortality)

So, where have we got to. Well, although the case fatality rate in the UK still currently stands at 5%, because it is dragged up by the 14% rate we had at the start. If we look at the more recent figures things have changed very dramatically.

In the first two weeks of August there were 13,996 positive swabs in the UK. In the second two weeks of August there were 129 deaths. If you consider every positive swab to be a case, this represents a case fatality rate of 0.9%. Around one fifteenth of that seen at the start.

I think you can clearly see a direction of travel here.

  • At the start on the pandemic we had a, brief, 35% fatality rate in France
  • It was 14% in the UK at the start
  • It now sits at 5% in the UK – over the whole pandemic
  • In August, in the UK, it was down to 0.9%
  • It is currently 0.47% in Germany
  • It is currently 0.4% in France
  • It is currently 0.33% in Sweden

It is falling, falling, everywhere. Where does it end up, this hybrid case/infection fatality rate? Remember, we are still only testing a fraction of the population, so we are missing the majority of people who have been infected, mainly those who do not have symptoms. Which means that these rates must fall further, as they always do in any pandemic.

To quote the Centre for Evidence Base Medicine on the matter:

‘In Swine flu, the IFR (infection fatality rate) ended up as 0.02%, fivefold less than the lowest estimate during the outbreak (the lowest estimate was 0.1% in the 1st ten weeks of the outbreak). ’ 3

The best place to estimate where we may finally end up with COVID, is with the country that has tested the most people, per head of population. This is Iceland. To quote the Centre for Evidence Based Medicine once more:

‘In Iceland, where the most testing per capita has occurred, the IFR lies somewhere between 0.03% and 0.28%.’ 3

Sitting in the middle of 0.03% and 0.28% is 0.16%. As you can see, Iceland, having tested more people than anywhere else, has the lowest IFR of all. This is not a coincidence. This is an inevitable result of testing more people.

I am going to make a prediction that, in the end, we will end up with an IFR of somewhere around 0.1%. Which is about the same as severe flu pandemics we have had in the past. Remember that figure. It is one in a thousand.

It may surprise you to know that I am not the only person to have made this exact same prediction. On the 28th February, yes that far back, the New England Journal of Medicine published a report by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD (A.S.F., H.C.L.); and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta. 4

In this paper ‘ Covid-19 — Navigating the Uncharted’ they stated the following:

‘On the basis of a case definition requiring a diagnosis of pneumonia, the currently reported case fatality rate is approximately 2%. In another article in the Journal, Guan et al. report mortality of 1.4% among 1099 patients with laboratory-confirmed Covid-19; these patients had a wide spectrum of disease severity. If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate (my underline) may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza .’

A case fatality rate considerably less than 1%. Their words, not mine. As they also added, ‘the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza.’

At this point, you may well be asking. Why the hell did we lockdown if COVID was believed to be no more serious than influenza? Right from the start by the most influential infectious disease organisations in the World.

It is because of the mad mathematical modellers. The academic epidemiologists. Neil Ferguson, and others of his ilk. When they were guessing (sorry estimating, sorry modelling) the impact of COVID they used a figure of approximately one per cent as the infection fatality rate. Not the case fatality rate. In so doing, they overestimated the likely impact of COVID by, at the very least, ten-fold.

How could this possibly have happened?

When they put their carefully constructed model together on the 16th of March, if they had been reading the research, they must have been aware that they were looking at a maximum case fatality rate of just over 1% in China, right at the start, where the figures are always at their highest.

Which means that, unless COVID was going to turn out nearly 100% fatal, we could never get anywhere near 1%, for the infection fatality rate. Even Ebola only kills 50%.

But they went with it, they went with 1%. Actually, Imperial College reduced it slightly to 0.9%, for reasons that are opaque.

From this, all else flowed.

If the INFECTION fatality rate truly were 0.9%, and 80% of the population of the UK became infected, there would have been/could have been, around 500,000 deaths.

0.9% x 80% x 67million = 482,000

LOCKDOWN

However, if the case fatality rate is around 1%, then the infection fatality rate will be about one tenth of this, maybe less. So, we would see around 50,000 deaths, about the same as was seen in previous bad flu pandemics.

DO NOT LOCKDOWN

What Imperial College London did was to use a model that overestimated the infection fatality rate by a factor of ten.

We now know, as the IFR rates of various countries falls and falls, that the Imperial College estimated IFR was completely wrong. The UK, for example, has seen 42,000 deaths so far, which is 0.074% of population. The US has seen about 200,000 deaths 0.053%. Sweden, which did not lockdown down, has seen about 6,000 deaths, which is an infection fatality rate of 0.06%. All three countries are opening up and opening up. Whilst the ‘cases’ are rising and rising, the deaths continue to fall. They are, to all intents and purposes, flatlining.

In Iceland it is around 0.16% and falling. In other words…

Stop panicking – it’s over

Whilst everyone is panicking about the ever-increasing number of cases, we should be celebrating them. They are demonstrating, very clearly, that COVID is far, far, less deadly then was feared. The Infection Fatality Rate is most likely going to end up around 0.1%, not 1%.

So yes, it does seem that ‘ the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza.’

Wise words, wise words indeed. Words that were written by one Anthony S Fauci on the 28th of February 2020. If you haven’t heard of him, look him up.

Critically though, eleven days after this, he rather blotted his copybook, because he went on to say this “The flu has a mortality rate of 0.1 percent. This (COVID) has a mortality rate of 10 times that. That’s the reason I want to emphasize we have to stay ahead of the game in preventing this.” 5

The mortality rate Dr Fauci? Could it possibly be that he failed to understand that there is no such thing as a mortality rate? Did he mean the case fatality rate, or the infection fatality rate? If he meant the Infection mortality rate of influenza, he was pretty much bang on. If he meant the case fatality rate, he was wrong by a factor of ten.

The reality is that, no matter what Fauci went on to say, severe influenza has a case fatality rate of 1%, and so does COVID. They also have approximately the same infection fatality fate of 0.1%.

It seems that Dr Fauci just got mixed up with the terminology. Because in his Journal article eleven days earlier, he did state… ‘This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza… [and here is the kicker at the end] (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%).

You see, he did say the case fatality rate of influenza was approximately 0.1%. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong… wrong.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. With influenza, Dr Fauci, the CDC, his co-authors, the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and the National Institutes of Health and the New England Journal of Medicine got case fatality rate and infection fatality rate mixed up with influenza. Easy mistake to make. Could have done it myself. But didn’t.

You want to know where Imperial College London really got their 1% infection fatality rate figure from? It seems clear that they got it from Anthony S Fauci and the New England Journal of Medicine. The highest impact journal in the world – which should have the highest impact proof-readers in the world. But clearly does not.

Imperial College then used this wrong NEJM influenza case fatality rate 0.1%. It seems that they then compared this 0.1% figure to the reported COVID case fatality rate, estimated to be 1% and multiplied the impact of COVID by ten – as you would. As you probably should.

So, we got Lockdown. The US used the Fauci figure and got locked down. The world used that figure and got locked down.

That figure just happens to be ten times too high.

I know it is going to be virtually impossible to walk the world back from having made such a ridiculous, stupid, mistake. There are so many reputations at stake. The entire egg production of the world will be required to supply enough yolk to cover appropriate faces.

Of course, it will be denied, absolutely, vehemently, angrily, that anyone got anything wrong. It will be denied that a simple error, a mix up between case fatality and infection fatality led to this. It will even more forcefully stated that COVID remains a deadly killer disease and that all Governments around the world have done exactly the right thing. The actions were right, the models were correct. We all did the RIGHT thing. Only those who are stupid, or incompetent cannot see it.

When wrong, shout louder, get angry, double-down, attack your critics in any way possible. Accuse them of being anti-vaxx, or something of the sort. Dig for the dirt. ‘ How to succeed in politics 101, page one, paragraph one .’

However, just have a look, at the figures. Tell me where they are wrong – if you can. The truth is that this particular Emperor has no clothes on and is, currently, standing bollock naked, right in front of you. Hard to believe, but true.

I would like to thank Ronald B Brown for pointing out this catastrophic error, in his article ‘Public health lessons learned from biases in coronavirus mortality overestimation. ’ 6

I had not spotted it. He did. All credit is his. I am simply drawing your attention to what has simply been – probably the biggest single mistake that has ever been made in the history of the world.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_fatality_rate

2: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(10)70120-1/fulltext#:~:text=Methods%20for%20estimating%20the%20case,a%20novel%2C%20emerging%20infectious%20disease.&text=To%20avoid%20similar%20underestimations%2C%20accounting,be%20about%200·5%.

3: https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/

4: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejme2002387

5: https://reason.com/2020/03/11/covid-19-mortality-rate-ten-times-worse-than-seasonal-flu-says-dr-anthony-fauhttps://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2020/09/04/covid-why-terminology-really-matters/https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2020/09/04/covid-why-terminology-really-matters/ci/

6: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/disaster-medicine-and-public-health-preparedness/article/public-health-lessons-learned-from-biases-in-coronavirus-mortality-overestimation/7ACD87D8FD2237285EB667BB28DCC6E9

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I find it genuinely distressing that people on the left whose opinion I previously trusted are incapable of seeing the wood for the trees on this subject.

Crucial Viewing - to truly understand our current Viral Issue

Great analysis spike. Only one small (and I do not wish to detract from the detailed yet coherent analysis) point I take issue with (and you might even agree with me on this).

In my humble opinion, based on all sorts of other evidence, this was NOT a mistake. Look at the Rockefeller “Lock Step” plans of 2010, the Kill Gates, GAVI, World Hoax Organisations Event 201, the almost clairvoyant books and films about China viruses, and the subsequent militarisation of police, contact tracing, bail outs. I for one, say this was a carefully planned treasonous operation and Fauci did not mix up his figures by accident!

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Spike, almost as if on cue, Poster123 has added a new thread. The danger of the Australian COVID Precedent? I’ll just quote from one sentence in it.

" The pandemic has reportedly caused over 850,000 deaths worldwide with an overall fatality rate of approximately one percent according to The Lancet. (In comparison, seasonal flu kills 0.1 percent of those it infects and the SARS outbreaks between 2002 and 2004 had a mortality rate of 10 percent)."

There was no follow on to explain this.

850,000 x 100 = 85,000,000. Shome mishtake, shurely?

And as for the current scamdemic being no mistake, but a deliberate effort to stampede the world into a wholly new socio-economic posture… yes, quite probably. But the farties behind it - such as the BillLindaroids (aka the Bellenderoids) - screwed up by picking a spontaneous, happen-along pathogen which just wasn’t up to the job of terrorising a critical mass of punters into panic-stampeding; because it burned out and became ineffectual too quickly; doing what novel virus/bacterial infections usually do, but too soon for the - unadmitted - purpose.

This could even be a back-handed wisp of evidence that the pathogen wasn’t created and released deliberately, because as a stampeder it’s been a bit of a damp squib, even within the Anglozionist empire, where such as the Bellenderoids stronghold.

On the other hand, it could also be a wisp of evidence towards the recently-aired thesis that the whole covid global episode originated in an accidental release into the surrounding civil community from Fort Detrick in early 2019, which had to be covered up by the US deep state racketeers when they realised that they had this cock-up on their hands. So - somewhat desperately - they sent it to China with the Pentagoon contingent, to be released quietly during the World Military Games, in - er - Wuhan…

Hi spike!

Thanks for this - some interesting info here. There are few points that I disagree with though, for example this:

As I’ve pointed out before, this kind of talk seems like obfuscation to me, and I think is also just plain wrong in many instances. Take two examples: Chlamydia and HIV. Both of these diseases have a large number of people who have the pathogen (virus or bacteria), but are not symptomatic. Do we not consider them cases? Are we not to count them or offer them treatment until they go on to show actual symptoms? Especially as we know that in both cases, someone infected with the pathogen (with or without symptoms) can be very infectious to others.

We might try and make a distinction between someone sick with Covid, and someone infected with SARS-COV-2 (as discussed in the Chris Martensen video I just posted), but to claim that someone who we know has been infected by the SARS-COV-2 virus is not a “case” feels like playing some kind of meaningless word game.

Is that true? Someone with chlamydia who tests positive but is symptomless is not a case? I think that’s false… but, I’m not a doctor so maybe I’m wrong.

Yes - I have been asking exactly that question. It’s very puzzling. I think we have an answer though. The recent video by John Campbell goes through a very nice analysis of exactly how this can be true. Check it out!

So, leaving my nitpicking about cases etc. aside, I think I do broadly agree with the discussion on CFR/IFR, and in particular the discussion about Iceland is a crucial one. I’d like to look into that in more detail - if you have any more Iceland data, please do post it here!

There is an important point to make here, though. The IFR as good or bad as it is, is far from the end of the story. The real question is not, ultimately, how many people will die, but

How many people will end up seriously ill in hospital?

This was the problem that we were facing in April, and will be the problem again in the winter, unless we consider our actions carefully. A fairly severe illness with a mortality of 0.3% (lets say) is quite bad, but when the hospitals are swamped with new cases to the point that they just can’t cope anymore, will be horrendous.

The baseline of 0.3% becomes meaningless when the hospitals are overrun - there is no real upper limit on the numbers of people who might die in that case, for lack of oxygen, or simply the lack of a bed for example.

In such circumstances, academic discussion about IFR are not helpful. What is helpful is to stop transmission of the illness, even if under normal circumstances it’s not that deadly.

That’s why it continues to make sense to try and stop the spread by whatever interventions we can, whilst still being able to agree that the IFR might be 0.3-0.5%. At least to my mind. That, coupled with known, effective treatments that can stop the progression of the disease in it’s tracks, like vitamin D, HCQ or Ivermectin is what we (as a nation, or indeed a species) need to be focusing on right now.

Anyway, thanks for an interesting read. Hope you find some of this discussion helpful!

Cheers
PP

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That’s one of the best things I’ve read on the subject. I’m not sure what to make of it - and PP has already covered everything I might have written in response - but what I really like about it is that the author spells out his reasoning so clearly that you can keep it in mind, return to it when necessary, and compare it with other arguments and evidence. (If you’ve got the stamina!)

On reaching the end, it was a pleasant surprise to find that the article was by Dr. Malcolm Kendrick. Five years ago, I read his book The Great Cholesterol Con: The Truth About What Really Causes Heart Disease and How to Avoid It (2007), and was entirely persuaded by it. It has the same qualities as this article. I can’t be sure I didn’t have the wool pulled over my eyes by a clever and knowledgeable author, but I won’t be persuaded to change my mind about statins unless it’s by someone who offers equally rational counterarguments, showing equal respect to the reader.

If anyone can persuade me to change my mind about COVID-19, it’s Kendrick. He raises the bar for debate.

It’s good that we have a forum in which a debate can be had! I still feel overwhelmed by it all, and can’t make much of a contribution, but I found this thread encouraging.

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Well said, @Twirlip

it is clear, no matter what you believe about all this, that there is a crucially important debate to be had here, with no obviously clear answers on any particular side.

I’m really enjoying the quality of the debate on this very tricky subject too.

Cheers

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Kit Knightly’s ten eggs:

https://off-guardian.org/2020/09/09/flu-is-killing-more-people-than-covid19-and-has-been-for-months/

For me, it seems that the issue of cases in respect to Covid is simple. The tests only show the presence or absence of a virus which could be a natural response to any one of the many types of Corona viruses including flu. It has no bearing on whether the person is infected or not, and in the words of one commentator, if the “amplification” is great enough, every person on the planet could test positive".

So I agree with Spike. A case (where Covid is concerned) should be someone with symptoms. And on that basis, current reporting means nothing

It’s true that there is a big question mark over how many cycles of amplification are run for the PCR. I don’t have any data to know what the norm is. But it’s something to take into account for sure.

On the general question, though, if someone tests positive for Chlamydia, but have no symptoms, are they a Chlamydia “case”?

In my mind, yes they are. They can spread it, and they may produce symptoms at a later time. I don’t see the difference with sars-cov-2

Cheers

Agreed. However, for Covid, all the evidence suggests that asymptomatic “cases” are not infective and hence do not spread the disease. So for Covid (again, just my opinion) “cases” are just frightening numbers being used to terrorise people and get them to accept anything while having no relation in fact to the number of people who actually get Covid, mild or otherwise.

All the evidence? Where do you get that idea from?

A systematic review of asymptomatic infections with COVID-19

COVID-19 initially has been divided into four types: mild, moderate, severe, and critical cases.3 However, with the global outbreak of coronavirus, there is increasing evidence that many infections of COVID-19 are asymptomatic, but they can transmit the virus to others. […] Asymptomatic infections have the same infectivity as symptomatic infections.5 It has been reported that a 53-year-old UK patient with an asymptomatic COVID-19 infection may cause 11 infections.6 A report pointed out that one asymptomatic person who experienced 19 days from contact with the source of infection to RT-PCR confirmation may have infected 5 people.7 These asymptomatic cases may play a role in the transmission and therefore pose a significant challenge to infection control. […]

That’s just the first hit. I haven’t searched systematically. I’m not going to try to review the paper. It may be badly flawed, for all I know. But … all the evidence? That’s a strong claim. What’s the basis for it?

WHO clarifies comments on asymptomatic spread of Covid-19

“The WHO created confusion yesterday when it reported that asymptomatic patients rarely spread the disease,” an email from the Harvard Global Health Institute said Tuesday. “All of the best evidence suggests that people without symptoms can and do readily spread SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19. In fact, some evidence suggests that people may be most infectious in the days before they become symptomatic — that is, in the presymptomatic phase when they feel well, have no symptoms, but may be shedding substantial amounts of virus.”

Their point: People not showing symptoms can spread the virus, whether they ultimately feel sick or not. That’s why wearing masks and keeping distance are so important to limiting transmission.

Van Kerkhove acknowledged Tuesday that her use of the phrase “very rare” had been a miscommunication. She said she had based that phrasing on findings from a small number of studies that followed asymptomatic cases and tracked how many of their contacts became infected. She said she did not mean to imply that “asymptomatic transmission globally” was happening rarely, because that has not been determined yet.

WHO EMRO | Transmission of COVID-19 by asymptomatic cases | COVID-19 | Health topics

11 June 2020 - Global research on COVID-19 continues to be conducted, including how the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) is transmitted. Current evidence suggests that most transmission occurs from symptomatic people through close contact with others. Accordingly, most recommendations by WHO on personal protective measures (such as use of masks and physical distancing) are based on controlling transmission from symptomatic patients, including patients with mild symptoms who are not easy to identify early on.

Available evidence from contact tracing reported by countries suggests that asymptomatically infected individuals are much less likely to transmit the virus than those who develop symptoms. A subset of studies and data shared by some countries on detailed cluster investigations and contact tracing activities have reported that asymptomatically-infected individuals are much less likely to transmit the virus than those who develop symptoms.

Comprehensive studies on transmission from asymptomatic patients are difficult to conduct, as they require testing of large population cohorts and more data are needed to better understand and quantified the transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2. WHO is working with countries around the world, and global researchers, to gain better evidence-based understanding of the disease as a whole, including the role of asymptomatic patients in the transmission of the virus.

Can people spread the coronavirus if they don’t have symptoms? 5 questions answered about asymptomatic COVID-19

Editor’s note: Screening for symptoms of COVID-19 and self-quarantine are good at preventing sick people from spreading the coronavirus. But more and more evidence is suggesting that people without symptoms are spreading the virus too. Monica Gandhi, an infectious diseases physician and researcher at the University of California, San Francisco, explains what is known about asymptomatic spread and why she thinks it may be a big part of what is driving the pandemic.

All the evidence?

Did you count up all the ‘may’ words in that piece you quoted, T? As opposed to the number of times they said ‘definitely does’…? By the same token, the moon may be green cheese - especially since its somewhat likely that no human has yet been there to check… :slight_smile:

My point is only that the situation is unclear, and I can see no warrant for making bold statements about “all” the evidence.

It would be nice if we could keep up the standard of clarity shown by Kendrick in the article that gave rise to this conversation.

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Hey! I saw what you did there :wink:

Moon landing conspiracies to one side, @Twirlip makes a good point. There is some evidence that truly asymptomatic cases of covid are rare, but equally there is strong evidence that people can spread the virus even if they are not displaying any symptoms themselves. Here’s a study by a South Korean team, published in JAMA that looks at a “captive” group of over 300 people. They were able to observe who got infected, who developed symptoms, and whether the viral load differed between the groups. There found that the viral load (and the ability to spread the virus) was basically the same between people with symptoms and those without

The only point that I was making is I am observing a trend in some of the commentary that I find unhelpful. Some folks seen determined to play some kind of fake accounting to first ignore deaths and now cases.

You’re not saying that there isn’t a deliberate casedemic blowup, then? I base my scepticism on the basic deaths-per-population curves, which all seem to show the ‘pandemic’ burning itself out by May/June of this year - as is typical. I also take these figures to be amongst the very few data-points that can’t be easily twisted, so they’re - somewhat - more convincing than most of the ‘data’ that gets bandied about.

Also, as Ivor Cummings keeps demonstrating, there’s no particularly persuasive evidence to believe that this Autumn’s ‘spike’ will be any more pronounced than previous years’.

Whatever the truth of the infectiousness of asymptomatic claimed-positives (claimed on ‘tests’ which are widely seen to be unreliable), that overall death-curve for this year, following traditional observations of past seasonal afflictions, remains pretty standard.

Also, Ivor seems to demonstrate that all the ‘precautions’ - masks, distancing, curfews - make no visible difference to the curves.

It all continues to look like a total cock-up to me, with shysters-on-the-make, both in politics and bigbiz, muddying the waters comprehensively for their own grubby purposes. Hence my constant heavy scepticism about anything put out by their cronies in mediawhoring and bought-academe. I remain persuaded that we shan’t be able to get a proper perspective on this whole blow-up until hindsight gets a lot more play to assess it. Until then, I’ll stay universally sceptical. (Even the death-curves have to labour under that proviso; the old Hollyshite saying is right in this instance: “No-one knows anything!”) :innocent:

Hi RG

So, I’m not too sure what is meant by the word “casedemic”. It seems to indicate that there is an effort to identify individuals as cases when, in fact, they aren’t. Is that right?

My nitpicking was specifically around the notion that unless someone is actually sick, they are not a real case. That seems false to me. You can be HIV+ or test positive for chlamydia and have no symptoms. It looks like a double standard to arbitrarily exclude cases of infection of SARS-COV-2. Dodgy accounting. If a test alone is good enough to identify a chlamydia case, then it’s good enough to identify a S-C-2 case.

On the subject of whether we can trust the PCR to identify S-C-2 infections, that’s clearly more tricky. If one amplifies by too much then there’s a good chance you’ll identify a false positive. Do I think that may have happened? Yes, quite definitely. Do I have proof? No. I also don’t know if that had happened enough to really change the overall numbers. Here’s why.

It has been a completely self evident truth that in the UK and (even more so) in the US, for the first half of the year there was a definite government policy to limit who could get a test. As I recall, you feel like you might have had a brush with Covid, but didn’t get a test. My neighbors had the same problem Even health care workers, off sick, couldn’t get one.

The amount of testing done was nowhere near enough to accurately measure how many people were really infected, i.e. how many actual cases there were.

This kind of half-hearted, passive accounting - much like the Iraq Body Count project - had no hope in hell of accurately capturing the true number of cases.

A more complete analysis, taking into account what we now know (from places like Iceland and Sweden) what the true mortality rates for Covid are shows that we were likely undercounting by 50x! So, in other words, for every positive PCR test, we had 50 others fly under the radar.

Here’s the punchline:

If, at the peak, every single PCR test was a false positive, that would have affected the true number of cases by only 2%.

So it seems unlikely to me that the problem of over-amplification will lead us to severely overestimate the true number of cases. I’m 100% convinced that, despite the PCR and all its pitfalls, we continue to massively underestimate the true number of cases, as we have from the beginning.

Ok. That’s the maths but out of the way. There is another angle.

We can’t get an actual report of the true number of cases. Unless we can test a good wide range of the UK pop, in accordance with strict statistical randomisation, we won’t know. All we have are the reported numbers.

I have zero problem believing that the reported numbers are now part of a government led propaganda compaign in pursuit of an agenda that is only tangentially related to public health. I think the recent ruling of banning gatherings of more than 6 people, for example, had zero health benefit, and can only serve to stamp out legitimate protests (such as if happening right now at the old bailey).

So clearly the government is paying political games with the numbers.

That’s what governments always do, regardless of the number (unemployment, inflation, debt etc).

But that doesn’t mean we are not in the middle of an ongoing pandemic. I think we still are. The next few weeks will tell if the virus has run it’s course (as many are predicting) or whether we are gearing back up to see the kind of overflow on the NHS that London saw in April/May.

I really hope that Ivor Cummings is right. I really do. But it is uncientific to refuse to consider that he might, equally, be wrong. The data will ultimately decide.

Cheers
PP