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(For anyone not acquainted with the Lexicon of Rhis - there don’t seem to be many in that boat :slightly_smiling_face: - GIC=gangsters in charge: )

Ireland’s Hate Offences Bill

We’ve seen a few of these sudden power grabs:
Californias AB 2098, to prevent Drs giving inconvenient information to patients, even if it’s true;.
The UK’s Online Safety Bill, an attempt to censor the internet under the guise of saving us from dangerous misinformation;
The WHO Pandemic Treaty, giving power to the WHO to declare ‘potential’ pandemics and tie the hands of willling governments who can plead that their hands are tied.

Hate speech is also the rage…
Ireland’s Hate Offences Bill is the latest power grab in the form of government overreach. As usual the pretexts are thin.
This one, which is sailing though the Irish parliament, is a beaut. “One of the most radical hate speech laws in the Western world”.

The bill takes several new leaps. It protects …protected characteristics … from what are essentially thought crimes, eg having material in your possession that might incite hatred, even if you haven’t written or said anything. This could obviously include criticism that wasn’t couched in ultra-cautious language.
The onus of proof is reversed - it just has to be ‘reasonable to assume’ - by the presumed prosecutor - you were intending to publish the material.

What is there to worry about? :face_with_raised_eyebrow: :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Prof. David Thunder (researcher and lecturer of political philosophy at the University of Navarra in Pamplona, Spain).is on it. This makes following it a lot easier!
Posted below. Looks like a Substack Worth Bagging.

One danger of the bill (or likely purpose) that I don’t think Prof Thunder notes is is that these tentacles could (and surely will be) used to trap individuals who are making a significant impact in opposition to official narratives - using something they may have said or written about something else entirely. The list of protected characteristics is long.

Make that …something they may have been going to say or write.

And make that …people who are reasonably regarded as intending to say or write…

The strange thing about all these near simultaneous and sinister bills-to-bind is that they are being fed through our democratic processes with hardly a peep from our represesentatives - who don’t give much of a stuff, as in the present case.
ED

Ireland’s Hate Offences Bill Represents an Unprecedented Assault on Free Speech and Rule of Law

Dáil Eireann, the lower house of the Irish Parliament, has just passed one of the most radical hate speech laws in the Western world, a law so radical that it could criminalise material in your “possession” that you have never made public, if that material is deemed by a judge to be liable to incite hatred and you cannot prove it was exclusively for personal use. The new hate speech law, the Hatred and Hate Offences Bill 2022, aims to enhance existing hate speech provisions contained in the 1989 Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act.

Some controversial provisions of the Hate Offences Bill currently under consideration in the Seanad (Senate) are substantively similar in effect to existing provisions contained within the 1989 Incitement to Hatred Act. For example, there is no substantial definition of hatred in either law, the list of “protected characteristics” given in both laws overlaps substantially (in both cases, it includes race, nationality, religion, ethnic or national origins, and sexual orientation) and in both the old and new hate speech laws, a warrant can be issued to search the property of someone on suspicion of having in their possession a text “likely” to stir up hatred against a person or group on account of characteristics that are “protected,” such as sex, gender, or national origin.

Two important innovations in the Hate Offences Bill are an expansion of the list of protected characteristics to include items such as “gender” and “sex characteristics”; and a rather open-ended definition of gender as “the gender of a person or the gender which a person expresses as the person’s preferred gender or with which the person identifies and includes transgender and a gender other than those of male and female.”

The likely effect of this law, if it is passed in its current form in the Seanad (Senate), will be to create a chilling effect around any speech that could be construed as critical with respect to “protected categories” such as sexual orientation, “sex characteristics,” “gender” (understood as “non-binary”), religion, and so on. It will also generate an atmosphere of insecurity for many citizens, due to the hopelessly vague and subjective manner in which hate speech offences are defined.

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Let’s begin by working through a few key elements of the version of the Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 that was passed a few days ago in the Dáil:

  • First, “protected characteristics” are race, colour, nationality, religion, national or ethnic origin, descent, gender, sex characteristics, sexual orientation, and disability.
  • Second, according to this bill it shall be an offence to— (i) “communicate material to the public or a section of the public,” or (ii) “behave in a public place in a manner, that is likely to incite violence or hatred against a person or a group of persons on account of their protected characteristics,” provided “the person does so with intent to incite violence or hatred against such a person or group of persons on account of those characteristics…or being reckless as to whether such violence or hatred is thereby incited.”



  • Third, the bill defines an offence of “possession of material likely to incite violence or hatred against a person or group of persons on account of their protected characteristics with a view to the material being communicated to the public.”
  • Fourth, the bill stipulates that if it is “reasonable to assume that the material was not intended for…personal use,” then “the person shall be presumed, until the contrary is proved, to have been in possession of the material (with a view to the material being communicated to the public).”



In practice, these provisions mean that a public utterance or published or broadcast text deemed by a judge “likely to incite hatred” toward someone because of their race, colour, nationality, religion, national or ethnic origin, descent, gender, sex characteristics, sexual orientation, or disability, may result in a hefty fine or a jail sentence of up to 5 years.

Even more worryingly, a text on your computer that references one of the protected groups and is deemed by a prosecutor to be “likely to incite violence or hatred” toward said group, may land you before a judge, and eventually, in jail, just because the prosecutor and judge decide “it is reasonable to assume” you were going to publish it. They don’t need to prove to you that you intended to publish it somewhere. On the contrary, you need to prove to them that you did not intend to publish the offending material.

So what is wrong with this bill?

First, you can be charged with something that amounts to a thought crime: possessing material (e.g. thoughts in writing) that a judge (i) “reasonably assumes” that you intend to publish; and (ii) believes would likely incite hatred or violence toward a protected group. Remarkably, under this legislation, you can be charged and convicted of a hate speech crime without publishing a single word , based exclusively on a sentence someone found in your "possession,” that a prosecutor and judge “reasonably assumed” it was your intention to publish. So this bill makes it the business of government to worry about the appropriateness of your unpublished thoughts , and to put you in jail if they “reasonably assume” you intended to publish them!

Second, any law that defines as a criminal offence the possession or publication of material “likely to incite hatred or violence” is inherently flawed for the simple reason that almost any criticism, satire, or negative commentary directed publicly at an individual or the group he or she belongs to, could, potentially, incite hatred against them.

Whether it does so depends on something that is entirely outside the control of the speaker, namely the character, temperament, and psychological profile of the listener. For example, for someone strongly predisposed to racism, it might be sufficient to just hear “black” in a sentence or notice that the subject of a criticism is black, to be moved to hatred or even violence toward blacks. Are we seriously suggesting that a speaker should be held criminally responsible for the wildly varying emotional responses that his or her words may evoke in his or her listeners?

Third, this bill creates hopelessly vague offenses, that provide no certainty to citizens about the conditions under which they may be prosecuted, fined or imprisoned. Vague and uncertain laws create an environment of fear and insecurity, the very opposite of what we expect under rule of law. Imagine you are a judge and you must decide whether content is “likely to incite violence or hatred” against a protected person or group: On what objective basis can a prosecutor or judge determine the difference between reasonable criticism of the behaviour or choices of a protected group (whether trans activists, this or that immigrant or religious community, or gays pushing for adoption rights), and criticism likely to “incite hatred or violence” toward the protected group?

What non-arbitrary criterion can guide a judge in drawing the line between fair democratic debate and criticism and hate-inciting commentary and criticism? And is a judge supposed to be guided by the sensibilities of a population pre-disposed to hatred, or a population of more moderate and balanced temperament? What sort of emotional or psychological profile should a judge assume when deciding a given utterance is “likely to incite hatred” in the heart of the listener?

A fourth problem with this bill is that it provides ample pretext for an activist prosecutor or judge to use the law to punish citizens who dissent from their political or ideological opinions. Hopelessly vague categories serving as grounds for prosecution are likely to be applied according to prosecutors’ and judges subjective sense of what is and is not “hate-inciting” content.

A law infected with this level of vagueness will easily become a conduit for the subjective opinions and ideologies of the interpreter. This means that public officials, whether police, prosecutors, or judges, will be able to use their power, if they so wish, as an instrument of political and ideological domination, dressed up under hopelessly vague language. For example, a judge who believes that biological sex is passé might interpret hard-hitting criticism of the trans agenda as “incitement to hatred” rather than reasonable democratic debate.

Last but not least, it can hardly be doubted that a law like this would have a chilling effect on free speech, given that all critical discussions of protected groups and their behaviour would have the threat of prosecution hanging over them. Indeed, it could even have a chilling effect on private conversations, since an email sitting on my computer that I shared privately with a friend could eventually implicate one or both of us in an offense under this Bill.

What is at least as disturbing as the content of this bill is the fact that it breezed its way through the lower chamber of Ireland’s national parliament with almost no opposition. Of the TDs who bothered to show up, a paltry 14 (out of the 160 who compose the full Dáil) voted against it.

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Hi @Evvy_dense Going through this nonsense a train of thought occured to me. It goes like this.

Are the unjabbed (I decline to use unvaccinated) a group with ‘protected characteristics’? If they are, then of course it opens up the possibility of anyone who has, or even thinks about encouraging vaccination, guilty of hate speech. :rofl: :rofl:

All Ireland then needs is a prosecuter with cohanes, and the management of Pfizer and Moderna, and a sizeable chunk of the occupants of the Dail would be having to prove their innocence.

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Hi @PatB. Not nonsense, and could happen with organisation.
On a similar track, it also struck me that the unvaccinated were a much abused group especially by the organs of the state; and the level of this abuse shows the insincerity of all those protection laws.
So you can not (for example) write “a trans woman is not a biological woman” but you can write that the unvaccinated have blood on your hands, as Hancock did (guess when?) to be imprisoned, or call for them to be imprisoned or denied health care. The very term “anti-vaxxer” is an abuse, but long normalised - an early success for the PR to replace nature with corporate products masquerading as established “science”.
Rhis drew our attention to the nomenclature “Science” as the corporate version, essentially a brand name, of “science” which is by definition sound but often falsely claimed. I think he may have coined this himself. It won’t become a widespread distinction I guess.

Most people refusing a vaccine do so on the grounds of safety; for anyone looking to be convinced, it’s usually clear that the evidence that is claimed to be overwhelming is lacking. What is there instead is claims about ‘effectiveness’.

In terms of the above distinction this effectiveness is the “Science”, the brand, which is aggressively passed off as the verdict of “science”, even though the safety concerns of people hesitant are not backed up with much more than PR.
It has often proven the case that the effectiveness is a mirage too.
(I may have wandered off my own topic - who do I complain to? :slightly_smiling_face:)
Cheers

Hi @PatB , there’s the rub! I think it’s one of those job requirements in the small print - obediance to the elite is paramount - take Starmer for instance! No arrests will be made and no prosecutions brought and certainly no judgements would be made in favour of finding such people guilty. In the UK I believe they passed a law just before C that exonerated every bureaucrat and politician and their mates from prosecution for ANY criminal activity!

cheers

I need to reread this thread as I whizzed through it. How on earth does one prove that some text was not for publication…?

Anyway: protected characteristics. The underlying logic is that one cannot change the fact that one is disabled, or a pregnant woman*, or of an ethnic minority, or of a certain age (etc). On the other hand the choice to be unjabbed, or to have a facial tattoo, or to wear your shoes on the wrong feet (etc) are personal choices that could be deselected and thus no longer a criterion that is used against you. You can’t become un-disabled… so it’s a protected characteristic. And so on.

I doubt I explained that very well.

  • Setting aside the nonsense about pregnant men, women with testicles and so on, which arise due to self-ascribed gender.

According to some you can elect to become disabled and presumably in some cases change your mind: 53 min in approx see footnote

cheers

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You explained it fine, and I think this may have been the original idea behind protected characteristics. However even then it would presumably have included religion, which is a belief, or a philosophy. Would you say that opens the door to other philosophical beliefs?
I would (though I’m not up on how those are defined), as many people do change their religion, or opt in or out completely.
Belief is also the basis of informed consent to meds.

The pregnant men nonsense is relevant, all gender identity is protected too.
Obviously added to the list later…
But that stems from perceived gender dysphoria - either another belief, or a medical condition; arguably similar to other ‘convictions’.

Some of these issues have been aired in legal outlets, but I don’t know of any vaccine exemption attempts in court that have been based on philosophy on vaccines alone.

Here’s some solicitors trying to lay out the ground.

Their perception of the “anti-vaxxers” being driven by “conspiracy theories” suggests they have anticipated being more on the side of the employers.
Incidentally, vegetarianism was rejected by a court (as a ‘lifestyle’) but in another, vegan-ness was not*.

Cheers

*Lawyers link says:
“However, the same employment tribunal judge found in a separate case that “ethical veganism” did have the requisite level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance (namely that it was “…a philosophy and a way of life which seeks to exclude as far as possible and practical all forms of exploitation and cruelty to animals…”).”

Not claiming to have proved anything except that these terms like cogency, philosophy etc may lay out the framework for other objections like " ‘anti-vax’ is a philosophy", and the seriousness with which the view is held might be the key, as the link suggests.
Personally I think anyone prepared to risk being sacked or take ridicule should be simply considered to have a seriously held view!

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Thanks for the explanation of ‘protected characteristics’. So if I was in the UK and had an exemption from the convid jab, I couldn’t then elect to be unexempt could I? If so, those un-jabbed and exempt should really be a group in the protected characteristics bracket.

Semantics really but I’m just trying to highlight the nonsense of it all. There are already laws protecting individuals, be they a special group or not. But the whole notion of thought crimes and guilty until proven innocent is straight out of 1984.

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I think this was covered earlier in the week on UK Column (more in the Extra than the main news, possibly). In conversation with a Psych lecturer the other day he told me about a news story where some form of implant enabled a disabled man to regain the capacity to walk. Which is marvellous, on the face of it.

In the book Disability Visibility (Alice Wong) there’s a great chapter by a woman who uses a prosthetic leg. Over the years the technology has improved to the point where she can genuinely ‘pass for normal’. But this is in America and does not come cheap. In fact, she can’t really afford it, so she leases… Really.

A huge advantage is that if the tech is upgraded her contract means that she gets the firmware update (or whatever). She is, of course, open to having the item repossessed. I kid you not.

That’s a good point. There is case law where beliefs (sincerely held, or instrumental) have been the crux of the matter. Veganism, I’m sure I recall, was deemed not a belief that could be ‘protected’. IIRC a tribunal initially accepted this as a valid belief but the employer appealed and was successful: the definition of religion is/was fairly restrictive.

Hindus tend to be vegetarian, and many Buddhists are too, myself included, but it is not central to Buddhist practice. If a monk goes on alms round and someone puts meat in the bowl it would be considered gravely offensive to refuse it.

They may refuse if they have good cause to believe the animal was slaughtered specifically to provide food for the sangha (community of monks, but in the wider sense the Buddhist community in general). I doubt this happens often, if at all, but a Thai red curry, for example, traditionally includes shrimp paste… and I imagine this falls into the grey area where the cook reckons fish don’t have feelings, let alone shrimps, so just chuck it in.

(In all the UK monasteries I have visited and shared the meal the dishes are laid out buffet style and usually labelled. If you suspected a dish might contain shrimp (for example) you just pass on by and take some of the next thing instead. Monastery food is generally superb. But just the one meal per day.)

Caveat: since I chucked it in as a union rep I have not followed the topic and that was already 3+ years ago (due to UNISON’s Covid hysteria which I could not defend with a straight face, or at all). So I may be proved wrong in the para re veganism.

However much I sympathise, refusing a vaccine could not be validly justified as a religious belief. But even if it were, there are ways and means around this and you’ll recall how Jehovah’s Witnesses have been prevented from refusing consent for blood transfusions and operations for their minor children. There was a case fairly recently in Portsmouth IIRC.